Ep. 22- What You Need To Know About Eating Disorders

Ep. 22- What You Need To Know About Eating Disorders

Eric was trying to speak Spanish to me before this episode began and I didn't appreciate it because even though I am someone who as they described on Instagram that I looked like I could be a cholo from the 1980s I don't understand a single word you said to me I counted to three in Spanish why it's a high level stuff that explains the confusion I can't count to three in English so I not sure it's a language barrier at this point yeah this isn't this isn't a linguistics thing this is just you know your level of comprehension yeah yeah speaking of which I thought of interesting Eric how in this upcoming episode we're actually gonna expose Eric as someone who's not well-read fictional I should say because he does confuse Arthur Conan Doyle with arthur c clarke he said arthur c– clark wrote Sherlock Holmes which I don't know how I feel about that because my world's crumbling my perception of you yeah you got a PhD whatever you read the scientific literature but what type of human are you listen Arthur C Doyle wrote this sword in the stone by Walt Disney and the co author and editor I'm pretty sure that's what we got out of that conversation if they're gonna hear I just can't wait to see your collection of you know fifty Shades of Grey like the entire anthology here we're talking about I that's right at the start with a you and Jake I make reference to Dostoevsky and his book the double and of course Eric says he hasn't read it and I'm just finding out so many things about you and I don't I don't know how I feel about this podcast I know how I feel about you but I just don't know I feel about this podcast coach I am I have a very very specific and limited reading list I basically since I was 10 I've read a sci-fi or fantasy book pretty much one per month yep that's a lot of months now though 36 I have read intensely on exercise science and nutrition yep history of bodybuilding and then philosophy related books in my my early 20s but for a very brief window mostly Eastern philosophy and outside of that pretty much illiterate so Wow yeah so besides four major fields of interest completely illiterate interesting okay cool well I hope I hope they will continue to listen to us I can't count to three in Spanish or English you haven't read a book that doesn't have a funny picture on the front or of a man holding a sword and oral laser beam rifle because you like sci-fi antennas or a guy flexing I also read books with guys flexing on the front okay I'm correct speak hey speaking of which today is on disordered eating and on you know body image we talked about with someone who it's Jake how do you say the last name Eric it's lunardon lunardon who off camera I said Eric is he from New Zealand and you're like man he's Australian and that just I'm now over two so far yep just like you're American he's new oh you're from America I get that all the time people everyone in person when I encounter people in Toronto Eric that are subscribers that like you're visiting Toronto said no I live here Idzik you're not from California I know yeah they're like hold on I thought Canadians were like polite and and like like nicely spoken and respectful gotcha gotcha okay boom boom boom boom what's that about I don't say hey coach now that we've uh this is so this is are required by our podcast producer who doesn't exist are three to four minutes of banter to show that we are in fact friends that were sociable that we like what we do in contract and we've so I just hit the four-minute mark now we could get to the topic that's how it works so I'm coach tell us what tell us what's on top today yeah I'm actually really excited to not pretend to be your friend anymore and welcome Jake lunardon on the podcast yeah because I would say you know he's very humble he'll say this at the beginning of his career but he is an incredibly productive researcher if you were to go on PubMed and look up one of his studies and then look at all the ones that he has produced he's putting out multiple studies like for every couple months looking at the etiology of binge eating disorder the differences between rigid and flexible restraint and how sometimes they may not be that different how tracking and monitoring behaviors impact people differently whether they have an eating disorder or not and he's someone who's also been active in the public sphere he's got an Instagram that's active a website and he's trying to do the good work of educating people about binge eating and ways to treat it and move forward and making people aware of media and the social media influence on the way we perceive ourselves and most exciting is that he I and one of my students are working on a paper specifically about helping body builders and bodybuilding coaches move towards more sustainable healthy practices in the sport and their relationship with their body and nutrition so he's gonna be a name that you you want to watch because he's doing a lot of good work in this in this sector interesting that you said the most in the most fascinating part or the coolest aspect was the one that you're involved with you listed many accomplishments and he said perhaps most interesting is I am contributing with Jake I mean he's doing something but this this upcoming paper it's a banger we really are past that four-minute mark on no I honestly I these aren't my children I don't have to love every single podcast equally I thoroughly enjoyed this one how he was able to talk on each topic how actually both of you guys straight-up were able to elucidate as people will see the audience eating disorders as it relates to physical fitness as it relates to iron enthusiasts where we currently are with the understanding what are some practical implications and takeaways and also just straight-up how prevalent in ways because we talk about the role of media social media in this modern age and then the emergence also of maybe some of these aspects as it relates to males which is not nearly talked about enough you know I see a lot of female fitness influencers about their eating disorders of body image issues I have personally interacted with a lot of male fitness influencers who from what I can tell have some of these similar traits but are not vocal about it I think I think undercover there might be a bro a brother out there listening this to some of the symptoms ago that that kind of sounds like me and just know that there are fantastic resources at the end and that there's no shame in honestly vocalizing these things or seeking help for anything that we talked about in this episode yeah absolutely this is I really hope people pay attention this episode and realize its value and look inward because the unfortunately while rates have been high and are still high among women with regard to body image and eating disorders and in disordered patterns there are they're steadily climbing and I have some preliminary data that makes me think they're getting worse in men especially in the the bodybuilding and fitness community so yeah definitely take a listen take it seriously and and hopefully there there's some gems in here that they can they can move you towards the best path for your life let's get right into it we have has anyone here read Dostoyevsky's the double anyone I have not okay y'all y'all should be ashamed of yourselves go ahead and read it when you can but I'm looking at two individuals in front of me I'm describing this for our audio only podcast listeners that both have a great hair blue hoodies white earbuds dreamy blue-green eyes I can't okay the connection is not that good but we're here in the flesh with two people two serious individuals coach Eric Helms and we're joined by and we're joined by a special guest today and we're gonna get right down to it I just before we go on I have one question however and that is is there Jake a mastermind program I could sign up via you to finally get rid of binge eating you know I see them on Instagram where people without qualification can just solve these problems through the power of positive encouragement so I'm just wondering if we're gonna talk about the science of disordered eating how applies to lifting is there like a handy clickable link people can use in the description just to pay you about ten thousand dollars to finally cure themselves once and for all it's kind of like you know various illnesses in times past where you just drink a magic potion it goes away well we have that at the end yay or nay I'm not be ill-advised society that's we have a magic potion I think we have a bunch of different evidence-based techniques that we can use that would increase the likelihood of people of people getting better but in terms of spitting out words that cure all everyone will benefit I don't think we do at the moment but there are so many great resources out there that can increase the probability of people getting rid of these unhelpful behaviors so why do we have them on no no don't I got a back I got a back up pitch I prepared for this so Jake option two is can we guarantee all our listeners that for the low low price of sending us 199 directly to Eric Helms at 3d muscle journey PayPal yeah of course we'll share you know small percentage of profit with both Anwar and Jake that they will be certified binge eating prevention coaches with scope of practice to treat diagnose and cure binge eating by the end of this podcast simple answer yes do it no we got way word he's back in all right awesome all right so so I wouldn't want to address our audience of future certified binge eating prevention specialists and just welcome them all to this certification course and then be very clear that this is a hundred percent of joke and we are not looking to get sued by anyone in so so awesome Jake huge welcome to the podcast I just want to introduce everyone to dr. Jake Allen Arden he is a deacon University over in Melbourne and he is a just come up come as a storm through the city of PubMed publishing left and right in the last couple years meta-analyses retrospective analyses looking at it multivariate models to pick apart what is going on with binge eating and someone I've had the pleasure of being on a podcast with we met through a mutual friend Jacobs kepis those who aren't aware at JPS health and fitness doing great things out in Melbourne and Jake is an expert in binge eating and the science behind it Dietary restraint and we really want to have a fruitful discussion with him today regarding how that kind of impacts the sector of lifting so Jake do is do a second and give us a solid on who you are what you're about and and what your expertise is yeah and thanks for the introduction Eric that is a very nice of you and I just wanted to first just say thanks for having me on I really appreciate the opportunity to UM to talk about this kind of stuff with you guys who are prolific in your own field as well so it's it's a real real nice honor to be able to talk about these things with you so just a brief background so as Eric mentioned I'm currently working out of Melbourne University in Melbourne called Deakin where I am a research fellow at the moment and also I do a bit of lecturing as well in psychology but my my main kind of career focus is on is on conducting research and particularly on binge eating type disorders where I'm looking at a couple of kind of streams of research one being understanding the kind of the things that are that are kind of promoting or encouraging binge eating or what are the things that are maintaining it and then also trying to come up with intervention approaches to help people overcome these these binge eating tendencies with the particular kind of interesting the past year or so on technology so what role technology would play on on eating disorders so how can we essentially capitalize on on on smartphones for example or on the Internet and deliver kind of treatments and evidence-based strategies via these these mediums to help people because we know that there are so many people in the world that have been cheating issues but there are only so many trained therapists out there to help people so how can we reduce this gap or the obvious answer is maybe we can use like phones and computers and stuff like that and if we're able to deliver interventions via these technology based platforms and so many more people will be able to benefit so that's really kind of occupying my time at the moment trying to come up with you know programs via the internet and via smartphones and yeah as Eric said I've done got a quite a bit of experience on I'm kind of evaluating the evidence base for our current treatments for binge eating so bio conducting a series of meta analyses so ultimately yeah I mean the very early stages of my career I'm only a year and a half out of the PhD but it's it's exciting times to come and trying to broaden kind of the network of reach by you know doing these podcasts and just kind of spreading awareness of some things people can implement to I guess help them to some extent love it so I think I think what would be really useful to start is to understand probably the the mechanisms behind some of these eating disorders like when we look at why they occur from a research standpoint what what are some of the underlying causes or at least maybe increased risk factors that would predispose someone to being unlikely to develop eating disorders and which ones yes that's a that's a good question and when we're talking about I think it might be important to differentiate between causal factors and risk factors because if we're trying to talk about something that causes something else we needed an experiment to be I would a manipulator and if we're talking about so for example if we're talking about child abuse which is a known risk factor for eating disorders as researchers we can't I guess assign people to an abuse condition and a non abuse condition so a lot of the time I think the reason why it might be important to differentiate between these two is because there are a lot of people out there that talk about eating disorders are caused by this when we know in fact they're not caused by because we haven't been able to conduct an experiment on us as you as you mentioned Eric kind of talking about risk factors instead which are more correlational in nature we know we know a there's heaps of research done on on risk factors for eating disorders and unfortunately the answer is with every kind of psychiatric or or physical illness that there's no single cause it results from the interplay of genetics psychology social and things like that but we do know that there are some clear risk factors that we have for eating disorders and the risk factors are quite the same across the disorders as well so they're they're not unique to anorexia nervosa bulimia nervosa or binge eating disorder and we know a couple of the major risk factors are one the body image problems so people who have have body dissatisfaction so they're generally unhappy with their body weight or their body shape and the reason why that is that puts someone at risk for a disorder of binge eating is because it increases the susceptibility to engage in one of those really rigid and inflexible dieting strategies and as well it kind of leads to a depressed kind of mood and those are also clear risk factors for the binge eating type disorders too but if you want to take a step back and look like well why do people get unhappy with their body there are a couple of things that that we know that that are causing or increasing the risk of body dissatisfaction and that's kind of the media the media portrayals of you know what men and women should look like so nowadays we've got what men's would look like you know this this you know all year round they should have this extremely muscular physique and then because you know it people aren't really aware that's you know if Eric that you know you look like that at the moment because you're competing from my understanding that that's impossible to kind of sustain all year-round isn't it because you know you have to kind of restrict your food just so long but people are unaware of an arrogant person and he looks great year-round so I don't know if that's the best example you talk about my coach one more time and we're gonna have issues [Laughter] Mars is loyal to a fault even lying about what I look like but uh that's fantastic yes should look like and then people take that on where they internalized it and then that internalization of the thin or the muscular ideal makes people quite unhappy with their body image and then when they're unhappy with their body image they try to find ways to change their body and the way in which they try to change that is via these these dietary practices but not they're the quote unquote safe dietary practices the more harmful ones as well so the the idea of these extremely rigid rules that people have and we know that these these rules are so difficult to sustain over a long period of time what happens is people wind up breaking these rules because they have a million of them if they break one of them then all hell breaks loose and then and then they interpret that is that they're not good enough they're a failure and they failed their self-control and then that increases the susceptibility of binge eating type behavior and if that goes on for long enough then they would be classified as having a particular eating disorder either whether that's whether they compensate after that bulimia nervosa or binge eating disorder so in a nutshell so many different causes they range from diet harmful dietary practices body image disturbances mass media there's also a whole host of genetic components as well that also interact with these things to place people at risk for an eating disorder that's the lots unpacked and it's really helpful I think to tie this into bodybuilding one of the first things I think I want to to emphasize is that it seems like the fact that a certain look is idealized is it the root cause of us because if we put a certain look on a pedestal or a being the ideal then it can supplant self-worth or become a component probably a primary component or too large of a component if you will for one's self worth and then would you say that the way and the the way that someone identifies with their strength and implements it has then kind of a property of that because if that has an extreme emotional attachment for them it has a lot of value then they're willing to do extreme things to which to it to achieve it rather than say if this is some kind of goal that is more or less just has its general purpose it's not deeply attached to my own self-worth and value I might just try to figure out what's the best way to do it what makes sense and have a little more emotional distance so would you say that the way someone enacts dietary restraint is kind of almost a property of their their their body image and what they see is ideal yes and you couldn't have put it yeah I couldn't put it better myself in terms of that's what this is what we we think about eating disorders and what are the things that are maintaining it so just to just to quickly differentiate between something that puts people at risk versus something that's maintaining putting people at risk is is a variable that that kind of is associated with the onset of an illness where as something that's maintaining is a variable that's keeping it going and Eric what you've described there is the things that are kind of keeping it going and at the crux of kind of these binge eating type issues is this what we call an over evaluation of body weight and shape which is perfectly suited to the to the bodybuilding population because what that means is people place their their self-worth almost entirely on what they look and what they weigh so whereas most people in in general daily life evaluate who they are as a person on on many different life domains so things like you know how well they're doing with their friends their spouse their school their education their work people with kind of binge eating type problems almost exclusively focus on their shape and weight so their whole self-worth is dictated just by this domain of shape and weight and which is kind of I'm sure it ringing spells in your ears in terms of what you see through your clients because they're focusing so heavily on on their their body weight and shape for a competition or something like that and then that we know through through a bunch of different studies that that over evaluation of body weight shape promotes or encourages or even to some extent um causes people to develop these these really inflexible weight control behaviors so you're right in terms of these these really harmful dietary behaviors can be understood to stem directly from that crux of over evaluation of weight and shape so they're the two things that are mainly keeping those binge-eating type problems from going the idea is we want to try to modify if we want to help people with these issues regardless of what domain regardless of where they're coming from regardless of whether they're bodybuilders or just people from the general population we want to try to minimize those those things from happening we want to try to broaden a person's sense of self-worth so not place so much emphasis on their shape and weight but but in the context of your sport really talk about you know emphasizing the important example emphasizing the importance of you know beating their their rep range or increasing the weight on on the bar or something like that something to give them more self-worth on and we also want to make sure that we we we don't prescribe these really inflexible dire rules so some of the things you I couldn't imagine some of the things that you've heard so I'd love to hear some examples but I've heard some things where people just don't carbohydrates after 6:00 p.m. for some reason 6 p.m. is the magic number or the magic time and then there's no carbohydrates consumed after that so they're kind of really hard rules to follow because a lot of the times people crave them but yes they're the two key things that are that are driving these these problem eating behaviors right I think yeah the rules are really interesting because if you have a healthy sense of self-worth and body building for you is not about fixing something that's wrong with you or becoming something right finally because you've always been you know too skinny too small or too fat or whatever judgment you lie on you a lot lie upon yourself the rules are much more easy to change as in my experience as a coach then if they are stemming from this emotional lack of self-worth and looking to bodybuilding for it which makes sense right like if if someone is just going out what's the best way to do it and they kind of got a bro science your old-school traditional approach or probably got it handed down from someone who does have a lot of emphasis on their self-worth based on their bodybuilding then the importance of those rules and how many there are and the rigidness of them is going to have almost this kind of idealized religious aspect where I can't let go of them you know I've got to pray for the Sun to come up how do I know well every time I pray the Sun comes up so I'm not going to change okay don't don't screw this up for me but on the other hand if someone has a relationship with bodybuilding wear it as an adjunct to their life I find that the rules will shift so long as they are convinced and they see the evidence and it makes sense logically and that's so much easier to coach someone so in my mind if I was to put on my sociology staff which I do keep around in instances like this it really makes sense to me that we have a bit of an onus on us in the bodybuilding community to represent ourselves and represent our sport in a certain way and this is where I think we can tie in the history and the culture and Omar I'd love to get your perspective on this where when bodybuilding first cropped up in the 1800s late 1800s very late 1800 to early 1900s all the way through the 1930s and 40s there was always this assumption that you know your form followed function and people weren't often training specifically for bodybuilding they would be physical culturist quote-unquote and they like for example the the gentleman who won the 1901 great competition the first large scale bodybuilding competition he was a multi-sport athlete who did some weight training but didn't train for that competition and they were like hey but this this is great we like the way this guy looks he didn't look like the classic bodybuilder there was more variation between the physiques onstage and then over time as the removal of the athletic side of it has formed for forms sake and as the I would say the artistic element went away from the sport it became more about just you objectified yeah I think started to lead to this you know the the first judges in that great competition where were two gentlemen you might have heard of the the author of the Sherlock Holmes series who are the C Clark is that right or is this so Arthur Conan Doyle it's one of those thank you wrong Arthur yeah yeah Sir Arthur Conan Doyle yeah that'll be the arthur c clarke definitely wrong that's a and and also a local sculptor who was also an athlete and then the tiebreaker would be Eugen Sandow who is the father of bodybuilding if you will so there had these two elements that I think were really important as one form was intrinsically linked to athletic function and being physical and being and seeing it as a representation of your health and athleticism and then to it we had an artistic quality and the thing about art is that there's this underlying assumption that beauties and I the beholder you might might appreciate abstract art you might appreciate classical art etc you know you might appreciate different mediums and it's not and that's very different from saying I'm gonna create art with my body versus saying this is the way men should look this is the way women should look if they want to be attractive valued have a mate and be successful in life which i think is the current messaging that it's sometimes explicit or implicit where you might have a bodybuilder who's standing in front of a Lamborghini with a hot chick on his arm and I think that's really where we need to bear a lot more responsibility with we're marketing ourselves as putting ourselves on a pedestal as just being successful in life in general versus saying hey this is the equivalent to me shooting a three-pointer in basketball or this is an artistic expression and celebrating the body in that way I think I think that's so subtle but so incredibly important and it's part of the reason why we have and correct me if I'm wrong growing rates of some of these eating disorders in society is that accurate yes that is 100% accurate and it just comes back to the the it all kind of stems from the the message that were that were that we're putting out to younger people in that this is what men and this is what women should look like so what we needed to is challenge we're gonna challenge that kind of message or or change the message that because when people when people who take on or internalize this message they don't know what you've gone through for example to to try to look the way you are for a particular show they don't know that it's it's not an easy ride like there are going to be some complications that are associated with that but because we see we see kind of the final product people think that that is attainable and definitely attainable and for a long period of time all of the time so as a result people get really unhappy if they're not able to achieve that in a short period of time because they're not aware or educated about the processes involved in the in the in the in the physique change or whatnot so it all stems down to not only is the message does the message need to shift a little bit that it's not being a particular physique does not mean you're going to does not necessarily mean you're going to be successful happy rich and all that in life and the second process is well you need to be aware of the safe ways in which you could get to that for a very short period of time because you're doing it for a purpose your purpose is is to compete in a sport but oftentimes when we see social media and things like that people people glorify it to an extent that if you achieve this then all of these other things will come with it all these positive things so it's just kind of a little bit of a misconception I guess when we're when we're talking about what the idealized figure is and and there's probably not really there shouldn't probably be an idealized figure because we should kind of you know recognize the diversity of all different body shapes flights and things like that but yes it just boils down to the message that we need to kind of change around that as you as you kind of mentioned there well said yeah Jake I have a question for you in terms of whether or not there's been any historical research taking a look at the role of media and in terms of influencing what the idealized version of the male body the female body would be because myself and Eric you know part of the origin of iron culture has been taking a look at the early beginnings of Western iron culture so as Eric said first bodybuilding show in the late 1800s taking a look then into the transition with guys like Eugene and some of the promoters bernard McFadden and at that start I almost I don't want to make a counter argument but I think it's interesting when Eric made the point that we have as coaches as a bodybuilding enthusiast a responsibility to promote a healthier image or a more holistic picture and to me it almost represents Eric a renaissance of that which started iron culture honestly when you take a look at it in the late 1800s where Eric said form follows function the person the one the first competition did multiple sports but then also did a little bit of resistance training and there even when you look at how they judge bodybuilding in quotations it wasn't just the physique it wasn't on only you know max muscularity there are other components actually judged hair quality skin quality a lot of different components just a person that seemed healthy vigorous positive correlation between what we would call health so you know having vigor and vitality and then also what their body can do some multiple components as you're kind of saying as opposed to how you look bro how big of your biceps that it's kind of distilled down to in this modern day and when I say the Renaissance I'll give a shout out to 3d MJ for raising awareness amongst the natural lifting community the role of strength in terms of hypertrophy / then also as another component through which people could try and attain a better version of themselves where Kennedy said if we're just taking a look at the physical aspect and not other markers how you're progressing in the gym or you know how you feel about yourself it could lead down this dark path so I'm just curious the role of media because I had a conversation we had a previous episode on this or speaking with an individual who you know he flat-out just said and Eric and I talked about on the episode we he said he thinks bodybuilding is unhealthy fundamentally and we're just talking about the idea that media probably played a big role if we look at a hundred years ago what the goals were and how people regarded themselves or what the intention was or what the idealized form if there was any and how important that was towards your self-worth I just wonder how it's changed over time because I've seen even amongst ourselves over the last 10 15 years there was this interesting trend amongst professional bodybuilding let's say from the early 1900's to the mid 1950s 60s so the Bronze Age a Silver Age Golden Age than the modern age so where they got bigger and bigger the the x-frame and then now we're introducing things like classic physique or then they have physique natural bodybuilding is getting more of a shadow there's more components can you just comment on any of the research when it comes to the changing idealized physique or body both for males and females and maybe what some of those influences of what some of those factors have been yeah that's that's a good point um so as we know that the media play a huge role towards the onset and maintenance of all these eating problems so that the looks a little bit different across across sex so for females for example it dates back to the early 80s where there's done a whole host of research on the impact of of the media on body image problems body dissatisfaction and also eating problems so over time what we've seen is towards the towards the early 80s there was a strong emphasis on a really thin kind of figure which is kind of stabilized over the course of the 90s and the early 2000s and even so so for example there was research done in the I think it was the early 90s where they looked at where they looked at all of children cartoon shows for example and they kind of coded the cartoon shows and they show that that the characters that were the the female characters that were really thin were associated with more positive personality traits they were liked more and they were they were just viewed much more favorably and that occupied about 80% of that the the main character of all these children's shows in the early 90s about 90% of the shows were they were a really thin figure which is what was kind of idealized and on by contrast the when they showed overweight characters they were associated with the opposite personality traits as well so they were associated with you know they were they were they were viewed as greedy nasty and all these other problematic personality traits that people have and then they did another analysis of this in 2010 so which was only nine years ago and the same thing still emerged are roughly the same percentage still emerge in that thin kind of figures were viewed less with positive personality traits and obese or overweight figures were viewed as negative personality traits so that's just highlighting that not much has changed over the over the course of 20 or so years but I think in more recent times I do think that there is a little bit up this is just my personal opinion though I don't know if there's any research on this I do think it has a little bit maybe a little bit just because I'm more aware of kind of these these kind of fat acceptance movements that people kind of promote nowadays and I think it's more common for people to really spook up or highlights the body positivity in their fat acceptance and things like that but again that's just my personal opinion that there's I don't know of any research that's been done to kind of clarify what's happening here and now but in terms of the research over time it's shown that thin characters are over-represented in in cartoon and in films and and TV shows where as overweight characters are underrepresented and when they are represented they're there they're viewed less favorably for men and then we know that that's got a direct causal link so there's we're able to perform experiments on on the impact of media on body image problems and eating problems and we know that that's got a causal link on body image problems so people who are just exposed to these cartoons or these shows are more likely to engage in these problems than people who aren't exposed to them but then the picture is a little bit different from men so in more so in recent times men the idealized figure of men has become this this muscular ideal so it hasn't been portrayed so much in the media in the earlier time so in the nineteen not in the 90s and the 80s we've just seen a spike of this going on in the past decade or so where where Marvel movie siege sorry like Marvel movie is now comics or mainstream exactly yeah yes so we've seen a massive spike in in what men should look like now and there was even a um there was even a nice illustration of this where they compared a Luke Skywalker figure and then they looked at what the the figure looks like nowadays and the change is huge from now Luke Skywalker he's he's got it he's got a V he's got his the shoulders a humongous he looks like the perfect man whereas back in the back in the day the figurine of Luke Skywalker who is this kind of scrawny little guy who is you know just walking around and it's just that's just an excellent portrayal of how things have shifted over time so what men should be and that directly impacts how men view their body and how they equate their body so we've got all of these messages bombarding us and it's it's and we imagine we put ourselves in the shoes of a young a young teenage boy they're saying all these things of you know if you look like this you'll be attractive all the women will want you you have all the wealth and riches that's kind of the message that we're getting so here yeah you'll be the hero and it's understandable that that men now go I want to do this this is how I want to do so how do I achieve this well then they will just do a simple google search and they'll get to some you know instafamous bro science person where they'll say this is bro science person will say to them don't eat carbs mate if you do it's the devil but like if they eat carbohydrates you will not achieve this goal then this consumer then says to themselves oh I'm not going to eat carbs because this is what its gonna you know it's gonna be a problem it won't allow me to achieve my goal and then that's where the issue starts so it's just a whole multitude of things that are going on and then and then we can directly link it back to the message that is being sent via these bunch of media platforms and stuff so to answer your question Ouma there's direct links between media consumption causing these these bunch of different issues that we we see so I think spreading the there the more scientific although it's probably the more boring method spreading the truth in terms of that there are no good or bad foods quote unquote will go a long way to kind of mitigating these issues that we're seeing I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna challenge you both a little bit here cuz I think the the scientific approaches to bodybuilding and improving the methods and and maybe even taking a more holistic scientific approach where we go right maybe we should compete naturally maybe we should use a more flexible dieting approach etc etc I think that's treating the symptom like I think I think you said Jake that the seed gets planted in society through the media and then I'll also challenge you Omar in that I don't think we can put the genie back in the bottle when it comes to the goal of competitive bodybuilding I think being with within the guidelines of the sport most muscular leanest best peaked etc all that I think to whatever objective standard there is which is could be inherently subjective so it'll change people are going to try to maximize that because it's competitive but I do think if we go all the way back to that and not not to say that you can't improve outcomes and have people have a better relationship and more sustainable performance using these methods because there isn't as much as people will sometimes separate them a huge separation between function and form if you are inherently unhealthy you can look at having a shorter career so for example in the back of the dozen appendix in John fares history of the mr. America where he looks at the ages of of when mr. Americas died and you can see it's in the 70s 80s and 90s all the way through the 50s and 60s and then guys start dying in their 40s 50s much more frequently around the time that that anabolic steroids come out around the time that the standard is also higher and you see people doing more extreme things now you could you could definitely sell the message saying hey you can have a competitive career into your 60s doing what you love if you do it this way and you can sit still get good results but the underlying beliefs and effect on one's personal self-worth is still coming from that the media or the messaging and in my mind I think it's it's therefore critically important that we we talk about why we're doing it and it's how you do it I think has to come second and so so I guess where my challenge is is it all more I don't think here's here's an example so if it was just the methods and how extreme it was and what was attainable and what was sustainable we would see less issues in men's physique competitors and bikini competitors and it would be a good thing that now there's these new divisions that are less extreme you don't have to get as lean something that's more attainable for everyone but actually in contrast what I've seen and there is some limited data to back this up is that among bikini competitors and men's physique competitors when I see the most amount of disordered eating and some of the unhealthiest practices there was a recent study by lens Ian's colleagues came out 2019 where five of the 16 competitors these are men's physique and if you look at their their their lean body mass they're they're certainly not like juiced out of their minds if you will they very well could be taking anabolic spurt it's not to the point where they're like 120 kilos at five eight and five of the sixteen of them that's 31% previously had an eating disorder four had been diagnosed with binge eating disorder and one had muscle dysmorphia so that's that's like a hundred times the the actual average and among males I think from the 90s if not higher might be a thousand if I got my decimal place wrong but it's an incredibly high percentage and that kind of mirrors that that observation I have and I think what's happening is that promotion of the physique as a way to become successful or a good person or a better person or just idealizing it like this is an improvement on you if you look like a bodybuilder I think that then becoming more mainstream is probably not beneficial and if it was just the methods or if it was just how sustainable or maintainable it was you would you would think that these less extreme physiological conditions you had to achieve would be better for one's relationship with food but if anything it's not that and I think it's because it overlaps with what society is already telling people yes you know you want to look good in bikini well that's already the message you're getting as a woman you want to look like a immense fitness model and look great on the beach that's already what society's telling you but there's no one in society saying hey lady you know what you need delts domains and dude you know and you need you need to have your butt so lean it looks like a ribcage that's what everybody wants you know so it's interesting to me that when bodybuilding was a counterculture and it was a niche it was kind of viewed as that's weird and that'sthat's cool it's kind of like a circus freaky thing and bodybuilding is always tried to become more mainstream and when it has that's when I think it's it's potentially influence society in a negative way so I guess I don't think bodybuilding is the root of the problem it's more like media and in our society is yeah because bodybuilding so tiny but I do think that when bodybuilding gets the opportunity to come to the limelight we need to be very clear that what we're about and separate competitive bodybuilding from what I would call physical culture and and you know bettering your life through through lifting weights and and moderation and your nutrition so that's anyway that that's my rant for the for this podcast and I definitely won't do it again in five minutes well it's Jake you want to go first or I am yeah okay okay you gonna come at me on my own damn podcast like that challenging me well guess what coach I agree with that right you got to because my whole my whole point throughout the last dozen episodes two dozen episodes has been nudging you to raise as they said in dune the balerion jihad to eliminate all thinking machines or like in carpenters they live movie to destroy the media that pollutes our population I've just been silently thrown little references in every single episode and to hear you not only echo it's your own original thoughts that is so much larger than bodybuilding brother I'm right I'm I'm I'm ready with a hammer okay I'm ready like Jesus at the temple to turn out them moneylenders I'm ready because I know I honestly what you said to be serious for a second now about it being so much beyond bodybuilding I think bodybuilding is just a symptom of the role that media and the role of marketing I would say when you can commercialize something and that's I don't even know how you'd study this because there's so many variables at play but from reading some of the histories and seeing what's been going on the more commercial than never got the less pure obviously the intention and when you have financial considerations influencing certain things in the role of let's say you know bodybuilding shows were we we talked about the hero's journey right let's say of Luke Skywalker so Joseph Campbell and all those cats talking about the hero's journey that Luke must undergo in order to be the person that he wants to be and how did we represent that than in an action figure as opposed to you know some sort of spiritual awakening or emotional journey you just got more jacked right saying let's make the action figure more jacked and so the emphasis on I think the superficial and by and large and that's why I don't know what the research shows either Eric but I be curious how it's different across cultures because you made a pose that was very interesting the Indian bodybuilders from the nineteen was a 30s yeah this book published in 1930 with some physical culturist s– bodybuilders and in a certain part of India yes pretty interesting yeah and that's what when you were referencing Jake before the body image from the 1980s now through the last you know 10 years last five years so based in the last three decades I was thinking to myself because sometimes I go to the AG oh there are Gallery of Ontario and I look at some of the paintings and I think to myself wow I must have taken a lot of work F that let's get a cheeseburger but if you take if you take a look at even the physiques that idealized female figure right which we don't we don't have you can't survey these people we only have some of the are some of the writings to go on and how it's changed where they're by today's standards these women were more plump and now it's seen in it depend it depends upon where you go and in fact when I was doing just a little bit of research I think it was around that 1800s were the portly fellow became a popular archetype because it's one it's an industrialist one who possesses wealth and has the ability then to feed himself so much so that he is he's a well guy on the Monopoly cover right right so just the changing trends and then how now we know an unfortunate I think we see the echo of that which marketers have known for a long time where we could think and Jake you said kind of the same thing about you know I like I like to think of myself as an Instagram historian where we see on Instagram some of these individuals following that pattern and I don't know who it was Eric we had a guest on that is Malcolm Gladwell oh it was Andy Galpin the seven steps essentially of selling anything but how you appeal to the motion and so how the fundamental shift has occurred when it comes to the body once we can you know sexualize it once we can market it once we could profit off of it and we could pry upon these insecurities the the advancement of certain idealized types and then the pressure to fit into that I think has only increased so I I agree it actually is a very cool thing you said when you said body building and I'm always about the counterculture punk through and through we said body building almost was at the time like 1904 even 1974 when Arnold stepped on stage of that art gallery to raise money for pumping iron all the way through pumping iron pumping iron was definitely a counterculture in indie-film ya know yeah and now the responsibility placed upon iron enthusiasts like all three of us right here to promote the right image because now that bodybuilding is getting a little bit more play the role that it places in society and what it should be about I think becomes even more important so coach yeah you came at me and I opened my arms oh why don't you cue the Queen song that we slowly ran toward each other on the beach and hugged I'm so happy yep this joke jq1 join on this hug give me a hug come on in brother echo you point Eric yeah hundred percent agree because what you said reminded me of a particular research study or a trial that was done a while ago where you said if you were targeting the expressions of this so the the the real problematic restraint and stuff like that we're not getting there we're just targeting this I think your words were the symptom rather than the roots or something like that which is exactly true so those are those a research paper done a while ago where they looked at they looked at who was going to relapse following particular treatments for binge eating so we're trying to track what are the what are the types of people that then go on to relapse later on so then they found was they found that people who went through treatment but they weren't able to change their kind of their conflation of self-worth with body image so their shape their shape and weight where they overvalued their weight and shape which we know is directly linked or occurs as a result of the messages that the mass media messages when people weren't able to change that when we when they just targeted the superficial stuff quote-unquote those were the people that were more likely to relapse down the track because it directly comes back to your point is if you target just the symptoms or the the expressions that's not enough because then people won't be able to then people will just go back to their old ways because it's that we're not getting to the root kind of entrenched thoughts belief systems that people have and if we're just if we're not getting to that then people aren't likely to get a benefit from sustained change and just that that kind of research paper immediately came to my mind when you said that because it's true we need to go back to the very start or the thing that is kind of driving everything else in order for people to adopt more healthier eating patterns and more healthier body image and the way that they kind of viewed themselves as well so yes an interesting point that you made and I think that's the way to go forward if we're able to kind of help people with these particular types of issues or or kind of change the paradigm of of your sport and the way in which people should go about doing it so what I got from that is that when no matter whatever I say is evidence-based it's I am science that's what I got from that thank you I appreciate that you are science you are you're the avatar of science you whatever you say cannot be wrong it's like when Neil deGrasse Tyson Basie said that philosophy he is a useless endeavor and no one in the audience was a god Neil has to be right even though philosophy is the root of parasitism that's okay okay so that that was I really enjoyed that discussion I think now we've gotten to kind of the seed of some of these problems that people deal with I think one important nuance is our eating disorders and body image disorders considered separate these days or or where are they how do they interplay and when they're looked at and diagnosed today under the same umbrella no they're not actually they're not under the same umbrella so so why do you miss disorders a relatively new then they haven't got a whole lot of attention just yet and the common ones I can think of a body dysmorphic disorder and and muscle dysphoria is coming in but it's not from my understanding it's not a clinical diagnosis that someone couldn't receive we just know that there's a lot of attention going on eating disorders are the more established and from my memory I may be corrected here but from memory the body image disorders that we have at the moment and do not actually fall under the eating disorder category or the eating disorder chapter per se in the DSM they actually fall under the anxiety disorders so the OCD type disorders because if we have a look at body dysmorphia or people are they think that they've got something wrong with their body – not your everyday person they really think that they generally think that something is wrong with their body and they go to great lengths to hide it so they engage in a bunch of ritualistic behaviors that people would would see which is common with the oct CD type disorder so that obsessive compulsive disorder so the hand-washing and things like that so it's actually categorized under the anxiety umbrella the the body image disorders or as eating disorders are under their own separate umbrella of themselves so but within the eating disorders we know that there are a bunch of different subtypes as well so there's bulimia anorexia binge eating disorder and whatnot so I haven't done much work on body image disorders per se but all I do know is that they're in their real infancy at the moment so we really we don't know much about body image disorders just yet and the only reason is because no one's spent a lot of time on them I'm sure that there are people out there that have that devote their life to it but compared to all of the other psychiatric disorders that we see we just don't know much about it we know that there are some similarities between body dysmorphic disorder and anorexia nervosa that they're more similar than they are different but to the extent of knowing to the extent of our knowledge of eating disorders body disorders are just a long way away and it's just it's just a matter of devoting more time and looking at it as well looking at what are kind of the core characteristics and what are the the treatment options the maintaining mechanisms and all of those things right I did I ask cuz it's interesting that it seems like the the general consensus in the eating disorder research is that the root cause might be an over evaluation of self you know I started shaping shape and weight and a maybe not necessarily an unrealistic view of one's body but at least a over importance on on its value so it's it's almost like the eating disorder is an emergent property of how one views their their body and the importance they put on it so maybe we're catching things a little late when we emphasize the the treatment of some of these eating disorders but it would be interesting just to see how that changes in the next ten years so let's let's talk about the different eating disorders there are you identified three kind of what their hallmark characteristics are and what is the what are the treatment options for someone what's the most effective strategies we have and then I think from there we can talk so I talked about restraint which would be cool yeah so in terms of the eating disorders so that we know that the main ones anorexia nervosa bulimia nervosa and binge eating disorder so anorexia nervosa the really thin figure people restrict their food intake and they don't understand the seriousness of the disorder and they it's that's kind of stereotypical illness that we see in kind of mass media of what people with an eating disorder look like binge eating disorder Benji ting disorders a little bit different in that it's characterized by recurrent episodes of binge eating but people don't usually compensate after the binge eating episodes and that explains why a huge percentage of people with binge eating disorder kind of overweight or obese because they're consuming heaps of calories but not then getting rid of it and people have been GE disorder a lot of the time they don't practice dietary restraint they're just they just they just they eat kind of they consistently overeat but then they also binge eat as well so they're just consuming a whole bunch of calories but not kind of exercising or not compensating in a way to get rid of those calories which can explain the overweight and obese comorbidities and bulimia nervosa is is very similar to binge eating disorder but people do compensate so they you know do things like they cellphone juice bomber the exercise excessively they take laxatives laxatives and stuff like that but the interesting idea is that there's kind of a push to view eating disorders to not separate the three of them or not separate all the eating disorders more so taking a trans diagnostic perspective which just means that we view eating disorders as one disorder and then it doesn't really matter what the the type of eating disorder is and it comes back to your point Eric in that the reason that is what we're kind of trying to think that way at the moment is because of the route kind of cause that over evaluation of body weight and shape we see that that over evaluation is prominent in all of the eating disorders so if that's kind of the root cause then our treatments should be developed in a way that tackles that root cause and because of that even though that there's some different behavioral expressions so there's kind of symptomatic things the root cause is considered to be the same and as a result we should just view an eating disorder as an eating disorder and not separate between all of the different types because it's people view people argue that we're just trying to over complicate things if we're trying to disentangle between five different subtypes we should just consider it as one eating disorder know that the root causes this and then as a result do our best to target that root cause by a bunch of different strategies there so they're kind of the that's kind of that there are two it's kind of a debate in the literature at the moment but in terms of how we should treat it well our best approaches are actually not that great at the moment unfortunately but our best approach at the moment is cognitive behavioral therapy and that is essentially the aim of it is to normalize people's eating behavior so take a more more and more flexible approach to kind of eating without emphasizing the the weight and shape stuff and we also want to challenge people's beliefs about their body weight shape so really trying to devote time to that to that root kind of over evaluation do our best we can to modify that and CBT has the it's got the best evidence base at the moment so for bulimia nervosa only about 35% of people who receive CBT fully recover so they're still around 65% that are still symptomatic which is non-right and for binge eating disorder people who receive CBT around 50% are expected to fully recover again they're still 50% that that are not benefiting fully from the treatment so just highlights that we've still got our best approaches but they're not actually that great when we look at it there's still a lot more to be done towards tackling these these issues of binge eating right that's that's I think there's a couple interesting things there and why I think it's probably good that there is an ongoing controversy and lack of consensus on whether or not all eating disorder should be viewed as one or not not because if there are different success rates that might indicate that it's not a completely unifying yet landed seed you know for example it makes sense to me that bulimia has a lower success rate than binge eating disorder because you could imagine that someone who has been Jeanie disorder is using it purely as a coping strategy they they have a relationship with food that has an emotional element but maybe not necessarily are they doing it to change their their body and they just have this more you know behavioral condition response which would be perfect for CBT you know yeah and and and while someone who is then trying to compensate and make up for it it's going okra they're thinking about the result of binge eating this is going to make me overweight I don't want to be overweight because I have that core belief and therefore maybe CBT is not quite as effective and and as we see like 2/3 of people relapsing or or not having an alleviation of symptoms is that an accurate characterization would you say or a hypothesis I think it is accurate and and what we say as we mentioned for one of the core things that are keeping the eating disorders going is this inflexible dietary restraint because that's the expression from those body image problems and people with binge eating disorder don't generally have that inflexible dietary restraint so it's just one less thing that we need to kind of worry about which then means that we see that binge eating like he said Eric we know in binge eating disorder that the behavior is almost always directly a result of of like negative mood interpersonal problems so they're using it as a coping strategy so that's much more suited towards behavioral techniques which as you mentioned bulimia nervosa is a more complicated illness it's a more complicated disorder because it it has a bunch of different cycles that people go through and then a much more entrenched and even so bulimia nervosa has a much earlier age of onset than binge eating disorder people with bulimia nervosa usually get it between their in their midst early adolescence compared to binge eating disorder which is in there more so generally speaking in early adulthood so it's less believing the vocês more entrenched so it's much more difficult to kind of get to and which can explain the the the lower recovery rates as well so yes that would that would then mean that well should we take this unified approach if they're so different in their in their age of onset or their illness duration and the things that are keeping it going so yeah old um I'll definitely agree with that and it's we still need to know much more we still need to try to figure out much more but that's the general consensus of what the research is kind of pointing to at the moment yeah that makes sense to me and this is also kind of where a physique sport throws a wrench in things where I think we can probably agree that if someone gets in the physique sport because they want to fix their body they don't like their body they see I need to be the ideal and I'll have better self-worth if I'm successful in bodybuilding then yeah that's just basically a expression of the same thing that others of the eating disorders have but 3 this competitive outlet but there are certainly plenty of people who get into bodybuilding who do not have a history of eating disorder you know the other 70% of that sample or you like like for myself I didn't I didn't see myself that I'm too skinny or I need to be more muscular I thought hey this is cool and I'm interested in the science and the practice and experience however the common thread that that people experience going through they're there any time they they diet down to the stage are things that that really look like elements of anorexia elements of binge eating and in potentially if it happens before they get on stage bulimia through compensatory reduction of calories and doing more cardio because your your binge eating episode is now impacting your results on stage and you feel you have to do something about it and that can create a cycle but it's it's interesting that in this case the there is a physiological drive and that's something that I think needs to be acknowledged like if we look at the seminal Minnesota semi-starvation study that happened and was published in 1950 by Ansel keys these were conscientious objectors a bunch of males who were healthy they screened a lot of us they have these very psychologically and physically healthy young men who are conscientious objectors and felt they were doing something for society not even for themselves by participating in this research they were starving so that others could be rehabilitated and the findings were used to rehabilitate POWs Holocaust survivors etc and learn more about human starvation but they had binge like they had dropouts from people binging they had to release them from the study they had had to implement a buddy system people were unenroll in from university classes because they couldn't focus they were becoming chefs afterwards yeah they were doing things like injuring themselves to get out of the studies that they could eat and they had rapid weight regain and many of them also lost an accurate representation of their own view of their self they thought they were higher in body fat than their own leanness other than they actually were so I guess what I'm curious about is when someone goes through the process of contest prep and gets to an extremely lean unsustainable place where they really only have a central body fat left what are some of the physiological drivers are they contributing to this is it all psychological or are there interventions we need it's in certain situations when someone has an eating disorder where it is about changing something physiological and how do we go about doing that well that's a that's a tricky question to be honest in terms of the physiology that's that's probably not my area to kind of speak on because just because I haven't done any any research on on that so in terms of the physiological markers that's a that's a that's a tricky one to answer we know that there are changes that go on physiologically let me pitch it to you a different way so the so someone with anorexia who is at a point where their body fat is very low and they are now becoming people are aware of it and they've been there seeking medical treatment what are some of the first things you have to do with someone who is let's say you know their their 180 centimeters tall they only weigh 110 pounds what what's what's step one is it just CBT and we got it got it and directs the emotions or are there some other interventions that occur no not with with anorexia nervosa it's a little bit different to the other ones because they're at such a dangerously low body weight that there are a whole host of physical complications that go on so you need to you need to first assess them the history what they're going they're they're biological markers so whether they're whether they're having their periods and things like that and CBT is not the first approach for people with anorexia who are you a dangerously low body weight who have all these host of physical complications so what you need to do there for those particular people is you would need to admit them to a to a kind of an inpatient hospital where the focus isn't on CBT that might be one very small component of treatment amongst the whole multitude of other things but the idea is then you want to you want to you want to refeed them essentially you need to you need a force-feed them in order to get back to a weight in order to get back these these biological markers essentially working in terms of the mechanisms of what biological markers are malfunctioning as a result of this severe starvation I probably don't need to read much more about this because I'm not incredibly aware of the biological markers that are going on but my understanding of anorexia nervosa is that you need to take a multidisciplinary approach where the first priority is stabilizing their weight getting them back to awake by it's essentially force feeding them to the point of getting things back to I guess some degree of normalcy but that's a little bit I'm wondering your opinion on on what it's like from physique competitors because they're going through the same kind of behaviors they're restricting themselves quite a bit to attain a certain body weight but they my understanding or my opinion is that they know that there's an endpoint after it so they know that once they've finished this then they can start kind of putting all this nutrition back into themselves and they allowed themselves to eat or as people with anorexia nervosa it's a never it's a it's an ongoing battle so they're doing this indefinitely without an endpoint in mind so I'm wondering what it's like when you deal with these people who are the extreme ends of restriction obsessive counting calories obsessive tracking their every exercise movement and things like that what's it like after then they finish their competition do they still engage in those same behaviors or are they much more relaxed and flexible in their approach it would be interesting to consider because what we see with the anorexia nervosa and population is they just keep going forever and it's you can't eventually what happens unfortunately is death because they can't say they died because they can't do it but people who have a goal in mind of stepping on stage one because I always anecdotally I hear our friends do bodybuilding and things like that and once they finish their contests they then go out to get a humongous plate of food because it's their reward yeah so that I think is it is a differing approach they then allow them to reintroduce nutrition back into their lives or as people with anorexia nervosa don't it's just like that forever and that's the way that they want to live for the rest of their lives so be interesting to get both your opinions on on what happens after the bodybuilding has finished or the the preppers the competition is done sorry yeah no that's that's a great question and the the differences among individuals gives great insight into someone's relationship with food why they got into bodybuilding how bodybuilding might have changed their relationship with food in their body and whether or not bodybuilding might be a negative or a positive for them and I think there's a big difference between 99.9 percent of competitors going out to have a huge burger and a shake and feeling so uncomfortable that they're borderline throwing up and sometimes throwing up the first day or even a weekend or even into breakfast and then going back to an offseason diet and then being all good and what often happens and what there's entire nutritional paradigms built around is trying to essentially stay as lean as possible after the show while still paying some heed to the competitive goals of bottling and putting on muscle and you know different philosophies of bodybuilding will have you stay reasonably lean or or get huge immediately and at what speed etc so there's a whole camp that came out of a concept of reverse dieting in Reverse dieting is a broad spectrum term I don't want to throw it under the bus there's a lot of good versions of it we we used the term recovery diet just because it's more of just trying to put the right mindset and athletes head that we want them to recover post competition because if you look at the physiological markers present and someone with anorexia who's lost a lot of weight is an unhealthy weight almost everything is shared with someone who is dieted to get to the stage level except maybe there's no loss of lean body mass you know comparable even maintaining you know bone bone mineral density but yeah I mean we see testosterone levels go to 1/4 we see t3 t4 dropped through the floor we see leptin sky tanked and in the ghrelin skyrocket so many of the same physiological markers occurred probably not the same degree as there is some you know maintenance of a healthy diet but still calorie restricted so hopefully micronutrient deficiencies aren't there no female athlete triad etc but often sometimes that as well so anyway shared physiological outcomes because both are an extreme diet but afterwards yes if someone is in the mindset of I need to recover build muscle improve for next season get back up to healthy body fat percentage that can be all good but when someone follows like the most extreme versions of reverse diet they're trying to essentially see how lean can I stay and still live life and they maintain a position of restraint into the offseason and they get this push and pull because they no longer have that all-encompassing goal that helps them implement that restraint and now the next season is is at least a year off and that's when it starts looking a lot more like bulimia and you'll have them right I was dieting on 2,000 calories so now I'm going to go to 2,200 calories and just cut out one cardio session and I can maintain that for four days and then I have a blowout well then I've got to diet that off and then go back to 2,200 calories yeah and so it can very easily turn into that and it turns into that quite commonly and that tells you something about in my opinion why the person got into the sport or how their relationship with their body changed maybe body women came to important during that process and the look of being a bodybuilder gave him a sense of belonging a sense of purpose a sense of self-worth and if I'm gonna still have that I got us to look like a bodybuilder or some semblance of it and I think that's where it's really important to to emphasize that yeah that is just the time restricted goal yes you should be getting back up the healthy body fat no being shredded it's not conducive to putting on muscle mass that that is where I think education does come into play and I think that that's where discussing some of the aspects of of what is actual flexible restraint versus you know rigid restraint what is internal cues external cues and what's what's it what is a healthy relationship with food in your body and what might that look like in the context of someone who compete yeah absolutely and so what you've described there is that people go through after their competition they go through episodes of binge eating purging restriction and things like that so and I think I think it just comes boils down to the fact of how they're kind of the importance that they're placing on their on their body weight and their body shape so without that so if people are able to after their show then evaluate who they are as a person on on all of those different life domains than what we usually see is that they don't they don't adopt these really inflexible practices and they don't go through the cycle of binge eating purging so I think it's an Eric you've been doing an excellent job in kind of trying to prescribe or promote healthier alternatives to bodybuilding after people have finished their prep so what are the diff and styles of eating people can can adopt after they're finished a particular contest or something like that so then then then the question becomes so what are the options so what kind of options do we have after we finish our competition so you've mentioned a couple things that the flexible approach to dieting which is I just have a just want to ask you a question is the flexible approach is that the same thing as if it fits your macros people seem to think so brother I I think I think it'd actually be really helpful if you could talk because because flexible dieting whether people know it or not did actually come out of the West and offers group of saying hey there's two different types of restraint which you know it's been kind of questioned lately but I think it'd be really helpful if you could talk us through what is restraint obviously I think we all understand that word and we know that a bodybuilder has to exert restraint to get the kind of condition they have to if they just followed their natural eating signals they'd probably lose 5 to 10 pounds and then just gain the right back just like most people right so if a bodybuilder must exert restraint what different types of restraint are there and how different are they and and what what it because you can kind of tell us what the roots of this flexible dieting movement are and whether or not someone who just simply tracks their macros is actually a flexible dieting or do they just think they are in some cases right yeah the reason why I just asked that because I wasn't sure whether if it fits your macros was used synonymously with flexible restraint in kind of your your field so in my my champion fight for the last five years has been to change that okay yeah so you you are now gonna be my propped up propaganda puppet to rock show the science behind that as well the real intention behind this episode is made clear so when we're talking about restraint we can define restraint as the the conscious attempts to restrict food intake with the goal of regulating body weight to summit then whether that's putting on weight losing weight or maintaining weight the goal is to consciously restrict fruit intake but we in the literature we saw a bunch of different inconsistencies so there are heaps of studies that shown that restraint was problematic in that it led to a variety of complications so not only disordered eating symptoms but also cognitive deficits and also even weight gain or weight regain so then but then there are other studies that found the opposite direction the opposite pattern so then in the the 90s it was proposed that restraint isn't a unitary construct we can distinguish between two types of dietary restraint one being a more rigid approach to dieting which is what we see in an all-or-none approach to eating dieting and weight essentially where people have these inflexible diet rules that essentially dictate what when and how much they eat so when people follow that they must never eat carbohydrates forever where they have these other rules that they go for long periods of time fasting you know six hours six waking hours a day they won't eat anything because they have this belief that they will speed up weight loss so in so rigid dietary strain is that all a nun approach to dieting where they have these multitude of diet rules that govern their eating behavior it's a little bit different to a flexible dieting or flexible dietary restraint which is a much more greater that approach to eating so it's defined by a bunch of behaviors by things such as things like people still pay attention to their figure but they allow themselves to eat in moderation a wide variety of foods you know if they felt like they've eaten too much at one meal they might compensate a little bit at the next meal by choosing to opt for a little bit less or healthier options but essentially the idea is that it's a much more relaxed approach to eating so in the in the literature they've they initially documented kind of different relationships they they found that rigid dieting was associated with a bunch of negative outcomes so disordered eating binge eating body image concerns and even weight regain whereas flexible dieting was the the healthier approach to eating he always associated with less disordered eating better cognitive performance and even more sustained weight loss but it wasn't until recently that the the relationships have become muddled again so we haven't found those consistent different associations and it was a bit unclear as to why that was happening so it wasn't until I guess very recently where people try to tease this apart they were just like okay what is it is there such thing as flexible dieting and rigid dieting do the two exist so what we've found is that consistently the two approaches are highly related to each other meaning that people who are high in rigid dieting are also generally higher inflexible dieting as well which doesn't really make sense the way that we think about it because we think about it as a dichotomy people fall into one camp or the other but it's actually not the case but my kind of hypothesis is that we have a measurement issue going on we just don't know how to measure flexible restraint at the moment I do think of it's something that does exist and it's something that it's helpful but we just don't know how to measure it because we've only got one measurement tool for flexible restraint at the moment and that was actually developed post hoc it wasn't developed with the intention of measuring flexible restraint but what we actually find is that if we kind of compare the two directly compared flexible and rigid restraint and we separate them out so we control for each of them so what that means is is we we study the only unique properties of each component of restraint so we partial out the commonalities among the two what we do find is that flexible restraint is associated relatively consistently with good outcomes they're associated with less binge eating less body image concerns and things like that but that only happens when we partial it out when we control for the rigid component when we completely isolate flexible restraint independent of rigid restraint so that's suggesting a couple of things are suggesting that one we have evidence that flexible restraint is good it's a good thing so even though people are still paying attention to their figure and they're still allowing themselves to eat a variety of foods that actually is a much more healthier approach to eating than the rigid component or the rigid approach the second thing is we need to come up with ways in which we can measure this better because the current measurement tool we have there's only at the moment there's only one self-report questionnaire that exists to measure flexible and rigid restraint what we need to do is come up with something better that completely isolates flexible restraint that's independent of rigid restraint and then that might clarify all of these inconsistencies in the literature and it might then kind of indicate it might give us a better idea or – might allow us to draw a much firmer conclusions of prescribing or recommending flexible restraint so my kind of the kind of conclusion from these two components is that there's no doubt that flexible restraint is much more safer than a rigid restraint but whether it's safe in and of itself is another question that we need to continue to kind of touch on later on down the track and I'm sure that that's based on your kind of experience with working with clients I'm wondering whether that's kind of the approach you the the thoughts that you have as well is that we know that flexible is better than Bridgette but we need to kind of still understand it a little bit yeah I think there's a big difference between principles and rules right so if you have some some basic principles and then rules emerge from them or rules help you follow those principles when the rule starts to subvert the principle that's when the rule is not helpful or counter to the – the principle or goal right and I think you can see this all the time and quote unquote flexible dieting communities and and bodybuilding and fitness where they will they'll they'll read or hear or be told hey you want to have a flexible you know a pro with healthy healthy with your food and be moderate and for that reason you know no food is off the table we just need to moderate portion sizes and etc and then the actual rule is I will hit 255 grams of carbs every day and if I'm over I'm a bad person and I might as well eat a large pizza was essentially rigid restraint you know the method is is slightly different you don't have a meal plan you have a macro plan but the perception and the underlying principle is basically the same I have a rigid rule and I've got to do it yeah looking at the research there's a paper by I think it's pronounced pelota at all 2015 yes yes yeah you probably know that what I'm talking about what they specifically just looked at black and white thinking and dichotomous thinking instead of looking at saying hey that's a characteristics of rigid control saying hey how does that independently fare and it was related to weight regain it was a mediator for weight regain de which makes a lot of sense to me I think we could probably look at two components first is how much does someone evaluate their weight and shape so why are they restraining and then the second piece is if we can get away from some of the methods because someone can just get exposed to the right influencer and they might track macros but still have a very overall rigid approach like a mob yeah yeah yeah yeah so so why does someone restrain and then if we isolate the element of black and white thinking so if those two variables I think we're emphasized and maybe a multivariate model I think we'd start to see us a difference and that's typically as a coach what I emphasize so okay we can create all these different kind of methods and individualize that and customize it to you but the big picture takeaway is we don't have this dichotomous view of food or eating and the reason why we're doing this is really important like do you think that by getting abs you're gonna be happy or do you think you don't have value or worth unless you're a good bodybuilder do you have those other ways of assessing yourself so I think that's typically what results in success from me and what is associated with people who adopt a long term flow simple approach and I think that those aspects aren't uncovered in those two components of restraint the way they are currently which makes sense to me why they would have so much shared variance that's right and that should ring a bell Eric all purposes OMA by saying Eric and I are working on a research paper at the moment that's looking at these kind of restraint styles both behaviors and cognitions and we found that that this black and white thinking when we controlled for everything that was the thing that was driving or associated most strongly with the psychopathology that we see so it directly comes back to your point that it's the kind of the the the belief system that people have that is probably the thing that is causing the most harm I say causing very loosely there that is driving the most harm there so what that means is kind of poachers in your sphere is that we want to make sure that we prescribe these guidelines that people have but don't then take them on to rules because once they turn into rules then people would as soon as they kind of break that rule then that all hell breaks loose they're so trying to take a more balanced approach where it's there's a bit of gray area I think if they if they go over their recommended guideline then that's okay then it doesn't mean that things are going to go all wrong so I think I think targeting or addressing the the dichotomous thinking would be play a huge role as as coaches in your sphere and also people as eating disorder excuse me eating disorder researchers and clinicians as well I honestly think that via the dichotomous thinking is the key factor that is differentiating between the two components of the restraint but at the moment the measurement tools that we have don't really tap into those dichotomous thinking tendencies all too well so it's probably a direction for future work too to really isolate those two measures of restraint by using dichotomous thinking as a starting point for how to how to diverge the two well said and yeah I wanted to leave it to you if you wanted to talk about the paper still interview but yeah I'm excited about that I think the discussion is really really cool in that yeah it is we'll see what the peer reviewers think obviously but but yeah I totally agree and I think that is a big difference understanding the the difference between the way someone views food and their relationship with it and what methods they use and that typically is lost when you get into the if it fits your macros equals clutter out diet and kind of can't so yeah I guess I want to kind of make one interesting statistical point about why it's so difficult for us to tease all this out is that when we're looking at all these complex variables and we are looking at essentially associations and correlation versus causation and even we do talk about causation the type of causation we're talking about is a contributory cause so enhancing a risk factor significantly more than another condition versus the sole cause is that the reason why when we when we looked at previous studies on restraint or even types of restraint why sometimes the direction of causality wolf-like flip flop like oh wait is restraint causing weight loss or are people who are gaining weight have higher restraint it's because we can't tell in that relationship so for the audience if you think about it you might have heard some headlines saying hey diet soda is linked with obesity well if you think about it hold on is it that when you look at a relationship is it all these people with obesity drinking diet soda is that making them obese or is it because they're thinking I don't want to be obese I'm gonna grab the diet soda likewise if someone is is higher in body weight and is not pleased with that might they not do a crash diet and then when they're tested and in a study score higher for rigid restraint and that's why when you have to do a relatively complex model use a multivariate approach to tease that out to prevent these the unknown directionality of correlations and really kind of do the good work that the doctor lunardon here is doing so just to kind of a minor clarifying point there on the methods absolutely and it's always said the designs of these studies it's it's so expensive to run these longitudinal studies for multiple years so we kind of have to use our next best approach by looking at statistical correlations first and then that will inform the the more expensive stuff down the track yeah so absolutely take your point there mm-hmm yeah so it's there's there's all these things that come from the next thing it's kind of what I yeah I've seen you know like with with eating disorders it starts with do you have an over evaluation of you know your shape or your body as being core defining characteristics of your intrinsic self-worth then that can therefore lead to a disordered eating pattern which leads to a rigid form of restraint which then creates this cyclical pattern and then emerging out of those that restraint are the things you have to do to see if the restraint is working and this is kind of what I call like the methods this is assessing your physique in the mirror right there's a body build or something you do this is stepping on the scale to make sure that it knew you weren't a deficit and you're losing weight week to week and this is tracking your food to make sure that the calories you're taking don't go over whatever limit or target you have and now there's lines of research that suggests that these might fall into that category of maintaining behaviors in some cases among those eating disorders case so can you talk a little bit about monitoring behaviors both of one's physique and weight and and then calories and food yeah right so I'm so self monitoring of of these kind of body image and eating behaviors is what we consider to be an expression of the overvaluation of weight and shape so if we think about it people who judge their self-worth almost entirely on their body weight and shape what do they do about that so we know we've already talked about though they go on to diet they go on to go into these inflexible diets they also do a couple of other things they they either actually not either they obsessively check their body so that can come in the form of many things so stepping on the scales multiple times a day you just see what their fluctuations in their body weight have been or they just themselves in the mirror many times a day just kind of assessing all the different parts of their body to see what they like what they don't like or they make comparisons with other people so there are a bunch of different body checking behaviors that's stem from this over evaluation of weight and shape and that's a problem for a couple of reasons the first thing the first reason why it's a problem is that it just adds fuel to the fire it just fuels that overvaluation even further and then even further exacerbates that rigid dietary approach the second reason why is it directly causes the rigid approach to eating in that if we think about it anecdotally for a second someone who is on a strict diet right or they overvalue their body weight and shape they they step on the scales and there are either three outcomes on the scale the first one is that they lose weight the second one is that they put on weight or the third one is that they stay completely the same there's only three outcomes from jumping on the scale but interestingly although there are three outcomes the conclusion or the belief will stay exactly the same so let's think about it to someone who loses weight they really place a lot of importance on their weight and shape they lose weight that's a good thing to that person so their conclusion is it's working I'm gonna die even I'm gonna diet the same extent or I'm gonna still die as hard as I was doing earlier because what I'm doing is working at the moment so the conclusion is I must diet harder what about the other outcome where they put on weight well that's a bad thing to this person because they were they're striving for weight loss so their conclusion is well what I've done previously hasn't been working so as a result I'm gonna have to even try even harder now to diet to lose that weight that I just put on so the conclusion again is that I must try harder and the same thing happens for the person who maintains their weight because they probably in most cases they want to lose weight if they haven't lost anything they're still disappointed so they they're their ultimate conclusion again is that they want to diet harder so body checking is a problem because it just fuels that rigid approach to eating it's it's a bad thing but then there are also people who avoid their body as well so what we call body image avoidance which is essentially defined by behaviors things such a things that people that will never jump on the scales they will wear really baggy clothes pipe any kind of any parts of their figure and bias they're never noon from Arrested Development no actually I watched an episode of that last night but I didn't like it basically they said the guy never will remove his jean shorts no matter what even during sex or anything he will always keep his jean shorts on will shower in them and you'll never remove them why why are you a C's yeah that that's made over his response Arrested Development classic but you actually see the like the big baggy like track pants and and and in the off season among bodybuilders and yeah yep I find it interesting to both of you guys are wearing big baggy clothing talking to Bell meanwhile I'm ready gem like a we're taking these tops off boys or what's going on here yeah it might just be that we're in the southern hemisphere no it's the winter but probably no no we have issues with body weight checking so yeah that's also an issue as well because what happens is it doesn't allow us to disconfirm our negative beliefs that we have about our weight and shape so both the body obsessive body checking and the frequent body avoidance both contribute to the maintenance of eating disorder symptoms via those mechanisms that I just talked about there so the idea is that we need to try to find some sort of happy medium but what that happy medium is is kind of yet there's still much more to be kind of explored towards understanding what the happy medium is from people with severe eating disorders the happy medium that we've kind of agreed on at the moment is supervised and regular once weekly weighing self weighing with a supervised Serapis the idea is that the therapist helps the person interpret what the numbers on the scale means without resorting to those harmful dietary practices but in terms of the general population what that happy medium is we're not entirely clear just yet so it could be in the form of just simply educating about social comparisons about well how it's it's harmful to perhaps always scrutinize your own body to really to the to the extent relative to someone you see on Instagram who you see for one second and then conclude that their fear is so great so we're not entirely clear about what that is but all we know is that both kind of forms of checking or self-monitoring are problematic and they contribute to not only the body image concerns that a stemming the whole cycle but also the rigid dietary behaviors or the unhealthy weight control behaviors that we see as well so the conclusion is that we must you know if we're talking in your domains the physique competitors we must pay attention to this obsessiveness we must try we must find a way to kind of make it less obsessive to some extent particularly in the offseason when people have finished their competition you know it's not probably not going to be helpful for them to just always stare at their body when they are going through a period of eating at maintenance for example when they're probably going to put on a couple kilos from when they were relative to on when they're on stage for example so it might just be a good right it's a discussion point to talk about how we could kind of find better ways to monitor these people I guess yeah absolutely and we have an entire paper that's in peer review that is attempting to provide some guidance on that it's obviously it's an in its infancy but I think the point I want to make and then I think we can we can probably close out we've come full-circle is that when you decide to be a competitive physique athlete there is an obligatory participation and many of the behaviors that we know are risk factors for eating disorders yes so the comparison is the sport you know comparing your physique against others on stage and getting a trophy truly based on how you compare to others and how you meet some idealized standard even if you are someone who hasn't bought into the idea this is what I should look like for my self-worth when I doing it for sport that that's present you also have to ensure like you know if you're not assessing you're guessing this is you know sport and fitness you wouldn't go through a you wouldn't be an SMC coach for a football team and and not assess whether it so much forty times we're improving or whether they were catching you know less interceptions or more interceptions or throwing better or throwing at 90-95 our fastball so you're gonna have to assess these are my deficits successful is my peak improving I'm gonna take regular pictures measurements step on the scale and if I want to do that accurately I might use you know an average of three to seven wins per week which might be up to daily weigh-ins which we know is associated with with with poor outcomes and higher stress and I'm gonna create this physiological drive that mimics anorexia and will prompt binge eating which is actually part of the post competition process everyone is expected to engage the binge eating afterwards yeah which is not truly a binge eating episode because you're in control you're deciding to although it typically goes further than you expect so you can expect to experience a binge eating episode you can expect to experience all the physiological effects of anorexia and you are participating in all the behaviors that are associated with increased risk factors for you know eating disorders so that's that's quite the recipe for disaster yeah so I think it's one of those places where you have to have informed consent and I think that that's my main goal is that I want people to know what they're getting into what modern competitive bodybuilding is and I do not think it's inherently harmful but I think you are too you are too great a risk just like if you decide to play rugby or American football you're at a greater risk of traumatic brain injury you know and the symptoms associated with that or just tearing your ACL so I think it's really really useful that we've got people like yourself Jake who are you're a pure researcher within the eating disorder sphere and taking this multiple multidisciplinary approach and being able to work with myself and and being able to kind of combine our knowledge spaces to hopefully people I think is really valuable and the fact that you're also out there and you're putting out information to the public not just within the peer-reviewed research I think is really valuable so Omar anything else that you want to touch on before we learn more about where we can find out from more information from Jake a lot actually I've been sitting back to get off brother just observing and first I am gonna call you out intern Eric one how dare you because now that damn right yeah because now that I've heard everything that you say publicly to individuals when it comes to restrain you know flexible restrain best practices the holistic approach getting into for the right reasons Jake I don't know if you know this Eric's my coach and so I sent him in did you meet the pound of celery this week so I sent him in the physique photos and he his response was just understand you'll never be good enough was his opening line and then what was shame to get them oh yeah yeah you'll never be good enough exclamation point and then he told me something about a cabbage soup diet and that if you don't see your ribs by the third week find a new coach so it's it's interesting how sometimes coaches have a difference between theory and practice I suppose that's just how we individually treat certain athletes anyways I just thought that was an interesting observation I don't know if you want to respond Eric before I go on well the main thing was I found you just did not place enough of yourself worth on your body right like for someone to allow themselves to have those kind of calves yeah we've got to reprogram yeah yeah so yes first first step is make you feel that the only weights or self worth and also acceptance from your coach is by making your body better and then letting you know it's never good enough so you keep you know instituting progressive overload of shame yeah and then once that shame reaches a level that it's high enough then you're more likely able to sustain that cabbage soup diet because there is a lot of body fat loose yeah there is a lot where we're getting you just down to Omar you're gonna be clinical I also it's it's been a very interesting conversation I do just have one or two questions for Jake you know dealing primarily more with let's say strength athletes over the last little bit it's so interesting to hear some of the stuff just some of the research because for a power lifter who's not a weight class restricted power lifter so let's say the classic power lifter where they asked you breathing yeah what should I eat bro and the answer is just yes um to have this to have this perspective and almost it's eight maybe they're Eric counterculture because they're not conforming to any body types of traditional body types but i I've seen and yeah the the conversation when we said the greater conversation about media and our role as so called in quotation quotations influencers or communicators or participants in the social media stratosphere would be that I've seen positives and negatives and maybe some of the goals or the onus on us is to emphasize the positive signals and try and do emphasize the negative ones where I've seen both so there's two movements related to the female lifters and a female lifting enthusiast would be one the slimthick movement that came out over the last handful of years which is the traditional you know body images that you have to be skinny you have to be a certain amount of weight like the model the model physique where you have to be a certain weight and then almost in contrast to that it seemingly was a little bit of grassroots where women took it upon themselves that didn't fit that traditional body type to embrace themselves and embrace their curves as they call and embrace a higher body fat percentage and so you know once again does that place pressure now on women for another pedestal where like now you have to have you know a ginormous booty or this net perhaps but some of the some of the more problematic points of you know constant being in caloric restriction if you wanted to be real thin and look like a model or you know the necessity to have one exact body type for everyone I think was something positive from social media so you know I once again am slightly cynical so some of the things I say about media or consumer culture could come across as negative but I think that's one thing one of the positives I've seen but then one of the negatives talking about the reward mechanisms maybe by the algorithms would be the prevalence I've seen a Jake of calorie challenges and the popularity both amongst males and females on YouTube of competitive eaters that eat twenty thirty thousand calories and this is seen as a major accomplishment but then also the the glorification of tiny women so I fitness influencers eating absurd amount of calories and still being lean and how those videos in comparison so you look at whatever let's say Eric puts out a video on what we just talked about how many views we'll get and then tiny girl like fit chick first ten thousand calories we'll get four million views you know so just how that it's a it's a cycle I guess one of my questions for you Jake would be as consumers as participants in social media maybe what are some of the best practices for trying to enable a healthier body image with you know individuals in society like what are the research or what does it say yeah that's a good question and I have seen those those challenges of the eating challenges they're actually quite entertaining to watch sometimes because I always think how they can get this down they eventually always almost get them down but in terms of what what can you do I think I I think the the biggest thing is just being more aware or being more educated about the kind of pitfalls the potential harms and advantages of social media because a lot of the times we're talking about people who lack the perhaps the basic knowledge of the media impact and they're they're kind of passive participants in in social media and things like that so here I'm talking about you know perhaps even secondary school children where they haven't been exposed to they haven't been aware of or exposed to these potential harms or pitfalls of social media so I think being able to one become more knowledgeable or aware of social media and and how it works and how upper rights particularly the fact that social media is more of a highlight thrill of someone's life rather than their everyday struggles that people go through essentially you're not going to post something on social media where you you feel like you look incredibly bad or something like that so just being more aware or educated about social media and its functions and what purpose it serves and because once there's a good deal of Everman showing that once we're aware of this we're then able to better challenge those those negative kind of images or stereotypes as well and we're better able to foster the positive or take on board the positive components of social media as well so that stems down to education and the second one it's just a simple it's a very simple one but it's shown to be effective is being selective of who you are or not going to follow on social media so if you're if you feel like you're getting you're following someone who is making you feel pretty crappy about yourself even though you're really interested in this person's life there's been some evidence showing that simple I'm following them has a positive on someone's body mean or esteem so although although it's a simple kind of method or strategy it's actually can be quite a potent one and it can have relatively short-term benefits to a person's kind of psyche as well so I think they're the two through evidence they're the two major strategy someone could adopt towards kind of taking on social media or media in general and then applying that to their kind of everyday life but again it's just something that science is pretty boring in that it's all the answer is always going to be we need to devote more attention to this or we need to study it a little bit further it's a really boring answer and I hate saying it but if I were to if I were not to say that then I reckon I'd be doing a disservice and almost kind of you know promoting something that is not as conclusive as what we would like to know if that senso I think there the main thinks that to take out of that I do want to challenge you Jake because when you said science is boring have you ever seen the movie or show weird science no classic Google lassic now I don't mean I don't mean that objectify either a woman in it but wow I'm motivated to learn after watching either of those so his science boring up for debate last question because I remember you prefaced this podcast episode were I think some of your current research is taking a look into the role of Technology with a disordered eating is there anything that you want to comment about that emerging technology best practices with disordered eating yeah right so with technology so we know that we've done a recent paper on the role of smartphone apps in kind of mental health problems and including disordered eating we've actually found some really positive results in that people who use smartphone apps designed for these mental health issues generally have a positive impact on their on their mental health problems so things like depression anxiety and also their eating behavior and body image so these mental health apps are freely available or most or if they're not free they're like a couple of bucks or something so people who are struggling to kind of identify a therapist or find a therapist to speak about their issues can may benefit from using these simple cheap and effective apps so I think it's really important to emphasize that technology certainly plays a role in in mental health and and people who don't have access to treatment can perhaps benefit from these these technology based interventions particularly for people who are early in the problem so particularly who have just recently started to experience any issues technology may be maybe the best approach for them because it would save them at a considerable amount of money but for those who are really ingrained and I've been dealing with these issues for many many years then it's probably the evidence is showing at the moment that you'd probably need much more intensive face-to-face kind of treatment for those who have been battling for quite a long time so it's just kind of for people who are weighing up whether or not they should kind of look at the internet for resources and look at you know their mobile phone for self-help resources just get a feel for what kind of works for them do they feel like they need to kind of let loose at a therapist just talk about all of these things or do they feel like they have the competency to deal with their things on their own so it's a case-by-case basis but I certainly recommend for people to check out all of these different resources out there on the internet and online because it could be something that really helps them as well but yeah as I mentioned it's a bit of a case-by-case basis and someone just needs to really look deep within themselves and kind of understand well what is it that I really need to kind of get my eating behavior back in track or in control again introspection that's that requires too much work you know it doesn't require work a whole pizza because it's delicious Eric I just this just in we got everything okay I that was the last question wanted to make sure we got everything for our upcoming course that Eric and myself are gonna be hosting how to cure binge eating once and for all price point a TBD we're gonna find the highest possible price point and pry upon their emotional weakness a charge as much as possible to emphasize the value of the product so Jake it's just been fantastic having you on help us refine the product you're you were probably wondering you're like wow Eric's questions and points were just impeccable snowman's doing research okay that's it a hundred percent agree so yeah we just want to thank thank everyone who's now a certified binge eating destroyer you know well done well done for your your course and if you want to learn more about breaking binge eating where can people find you check thanks for that I just want to say again thanks for having me on it's been a real honor to speak to you guys on these issues like you're both humongous in your space in terms of the amount of people that listen to your stuff so it's really it's a great privilege to speak so I thank you once again please please don't try and out humble Eric Helms it will not work you it's a losing battle no no Jake did a great job I think it's definitely more than I am yeah so if you're interested in the stuff that I kind of do so on I've got a web site available that provides a bunch of different self-help resources and articles and research opportunities and that's just break binge-eating calm and also on on instagram as well if star recently started an Instagram which is getting a bit of attention which is nice at the moment where I just post a bunch of things related to these topics that I've all spoken that we've all spoke about today and that's just at Break binge eating on Instagram so give us a follow if you're if you're interested in this kind of information and yeah that's where all kind of my information goes out and try to disseminate as much as possible towards the community via those two platforms they're awesome thank you so much Jake I really appreciate your time thank you again Jake honest it's been fantastic having you on I appreciate all the insight that you provided I think we've really talked thoroughly on this topic I think there are numerous takeaways for everyone listening even if you've never found yourself in that situation of disordered eating just perhaps helping out someone else who you might know is going through this or you see some of those symptoms and signs you know a little can go a long way I want to thank everyone who has been listening to iron culture the podcast history science culture it's how we do it new episodes every single Monday with myself and the one and only Erick Helms you can leave a rating and review on iTunes it does help us out you can also give a thumbs up if you're on a youtube or a thumbs down if that's how you feel that's okay you leave a comment we will do our best to respond everything that Jake once again mentioned will be linked in the description for those curious and we'll catch everyone in that next episode on Monday

13 thoughts on “Ep. 22- What You Need To Know About Eating Disorders”

  1. such a great topic!! I am someone who has had issues with EDs and now (years later) have decided to compete and was actually a little fearful that it might trigger some eating disorder behavior. This video helped me pin point my "why" which I believe comes from a healthy place. I now feel better about my decision to compete. you guys brought me peace! thank you!!

  2. Keep up the great work guys. As a coach and trainer, it gives me great insight to the literature and helps me coach and keep people healthy.
    I love this kind of info and wished all people felt the same way and didnt follow that stupid Insta bro

  3. What would be great if these so called influncers would stop eating 24 doughnuts at a sitting and glorifying binge eating. Same goes for the idiotic 10 thousand calorie challenges and things of that sort.

  4. We needed this video. Thanks Omar and Eric. This video needed to be made; Especially for men. I have struggled with BED before when I’ve gotten very lean. It was terrible and I felt like because I was a man it was wrong for me to struggle with this. I felt like I was out of place and should just get over myself ( though I couldn’t). Anyone who’s had BED can understand. Thanks guys…

  5. Everybody: Do us a solid and give us a second
    Eric Helms: Do us a second and give us a solid

    🤣 You rock Eric, just teasing!

  6. Toughest challenge so far of my current prep 10 weeks out? Picking up on all those juicy metaphors featured in this awesome podcast! Keep it up guys – after all: in five weeks time this podcast will be the only purpose to my life besides food and training!

  7. Congrats Eric on your recent bodybuilding show win. I think we all would love to hear about your approach to your own personal recovery diet and transition back into higher body fat percentages. We all know how to follow the plan on paper and know the textbook psychology to what comes with regaining, but I’d like to hear how you overcome the struggles of seeing your body smooth out post contest.

  8. Have gone through all the episodes and really enjoyed all of them. Just a comment. Please Omar try to reduce the amount of jokes made in the discussions. I think they’re a great addition to the podcast and I would lie if I’d say I don’t have to contain myself because the humour is pretty good. But there can be too many jokes made to the point where what the guest is saying or has said is lost in between. As I said I did enjoy all of the episodes including this one

  9. As long as contest judges reward those who can best target show day with their most unhealthy day of the year, there will be issues. BTW, I have no idea how to solve the problem.

  10. Was actually talking about this with two clients today and making a YouTube about it. But just started this, so thank you for the listen today!

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